Gary: |
Because I'm from a script -writing magazine, I'm particularly interested in the technical process that you went through fom the point that somebody said, "I know, I've got this i shooting script.)
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Ronald: |
Well ... I'll just tell you the story of what happened ...
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Gary: |
Okay ...
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Ronald: |
See if that helps.
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Gary: |
That's great.
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Ronald: |
Polanski went to see a play of mine which was running in Paris, in French ... I mean it was a translation of a play, called "Taking Sides" ... it's now a movie [?] did, in France it's called [?] ... and he went to see it and he thought "well this guy could perhaps write this script." He'd already had the book. His lawyer found the book ... he said "Roman, this is something for you," and Roman loved the book, and then he telephoned me ... I'd never met him before ... he said would I read the book, which he sent to me, and I read it in one sitting ... it's a compelling book ... have you read it?
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Gary: |
No.
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Ronald: |
It's a terrific ... you can't put it down. So I phoned him back and I said I'd love to do it. I went over to Paris for a meeting, and we just talked very generally about the approach. The thing in the book which we tried to preserve is the objectivity. It's very cool, the book. It's not dramatised. It's written in the first person, it's a memoir, but it's as if the guy is writing about somebody else. It's marvellous. I've never come across anything like that, it's compelling. So Roman and I said that ... we've got to preserve that, because that's the heart of the book. And I then went away and tried to start. And I couldn't. I don't know why ... I could not get going. And I ... he kept phoning me, saying, "Have you started yet? ... Where are you?" ...you know, he's very impatient. He thinks it should be done overnight. And finally, he just said, "Start." And so I did. And it took me quite a long time. I just was very loyal to the book, to keep that structure, to keep that shape. And then sent him the script which he liked, he was very sweet, he liked it, and he said, "But I want to do some work on it, because I've got some good ideas." And then we were locked up in a French house in the countryside in France for six weeks, and we worked every day. Monday to Monday, from nine thirty till six; and we laughed. We laughed all day long. People who were in the house said, "Oh, are you writing a comedy?" But it was our way of dealing with this very grim material. And I think what happened was we preserved the form of the book, translated into cinematic terms obviously, and then Roman injected things that he remembered, that he ... because he'd been through this ...
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Gary: |
It would've been quite a personal thing ...
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Ronald: |
Yes, but I can't ever say that I detected anything deeply affecting. He's very concealed, Polanski. We became very close friends, but I don't think I ever saw him drop his guard. I didn't see him upset or anything like that, we just did the work. So that was the process really. Does that answer your question?
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Gary: |
I have a few more, but ...
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Ronald: |
No, no, but that question.
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Gary: |
Yes it has, yeah ...
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Port.Man: |
Before meeting Roman [making ...?] for the first time, you were comfortable with his cinema?
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Ronald: |
How do you mean?
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Port.Man: |
Because his cinema previously to this film is very troubling.
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Ronald: |
Yes ... you mean other films that ...
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Port.Man: |
Other films, yes.
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Ronald: |
Yes ... no we never thought about that, we knew we had a very original view, a very original approach to this awful history. It's true, people will say there's a similarity to Schindler's List, they'll say this, that, and the other, but I think what we've done is totally authentic, and that's largely due to Polanski, because that's what he went through, that's his life. So no, we weren't intimidated ... that's what you mean? Whether we we sort of nervous, made nervous by the past, by other films ... but we weren't, no.
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Port.Man: |
Did you like them? The films?
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Ronald: |
Some. Not all of them ... some of them. I thought Schindler's List was a very important film. I think these films are important because ... especially now in the political situation with Israel, and anti-semitism ... I think these sort of films just remind you what a dreadful event took place. People are now ... genuine anti-semites are able to express their anti-semitism by attacking Israel ... And I think these films tell you what happened to the Jews. Not to Israel, but to the Jews. And it makes that separation. I think it's rather important. That's my private view. Personal.
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Gary: |
That's very interesting. Just ... back to the process ...
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Ronald: |
No, please ... go ...
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Gary: |
When you first ... you said you couldn't start, he called you up and said, "Start!"
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Ronald: |
"Start!"
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Gary: |
Exclamation mark.
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Ronald: |
Yes, you're telling me! Two exclamation marks. (laughter)
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Gary: |
Okay we'll give you two. So then did you begin writing a screenplay? Or did you begin with a treatment ...?
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Ronald: |
No, I can't write treatments, I think there's a danger with treatments. That you ... you write out your first excitement and enthusiasm in a prose treatment. And as I've also written novels, I worry about the prose. And it's a very difficult thing for me to ... just to say, "He goes to the door, he goes up the stairs ..." I want to make it more literary. And I would never ... I have never done a treatment.
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Gary: |
So you began ...
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Ronald: |
I went straight in. Fade in, one ... whatever. He's playing the piano in the radio station.
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Gary: |
And so the first treatment that you sent Roman Polanski ...
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Ronald: |
... was the script.
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Gary: |
And that was the first draft for you?
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Ronald: |
Yeah.
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Gary: |
You didn't go back over it?
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Ronald: |
No that was the first draft ... oh I mean I worked on it, but I mean what I presented was what I thought I couldn't do any more on it. That was as much as I could do. And then I gave it to him.
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Gary: |
And what happened during the process, the six weeks in France. How much ...
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Ronald: |
Well we took it apart scene by scene. We examined every sentence, every full stop, every comma. He has a most wonderful eye for detail, Roman, and you know, he's a very good artist. He trained as an artist. So if there was something that I didn't quite understand that was particularly Polish or German, he'd draw it. I wish I'd kept them. I remember once ... there's a scene ... have you seen the film?
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Gary: |
Yes.
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Ronald: |
There's a scene where he hides behind a dustbin.
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Gary: |
That's right. There's a row of them.
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Ronald: |
Yeah ... then he crosses to the hospital. Roman drew those dustbins; he wanted me to describe them in the screenplay precisely ... I suppose for the art department, but for his own satisfaction too. There were things of that kind. We worked ... every scene was worked, and then we acted ... we're both actors, you know, we both started as actors ... so we'd play the scenes, which was wonderful fun, and improvise and then make notes, you know, of what we'd said ... that was so funny. And then he'd say (Polanski's accent) "You know, you're terrible in that scene, you're terrible!" And then I'd say he was terrible too.
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Port.Man: |
You already wrote material about Mandela, and other true characters ...
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Ronald: |
I have, and [?] Wengler, the German conductor, yes ...
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Port.Man: |
You think that interests you?
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Ronald: |
It does.
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Port.Man: |
... the reality ...
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Ronald: |
You know what, it gives it an authenticity, you know that as a journalist, it ... you know it's true. And of course you have to dramatise it, and find a way of doing ... but it does interest me. My last play in London was about Gustav Mahler, the composer. I just do like writing about real people. Not living people ... though I'm doing one at the moment about ... I'm reconstructing a trial that happened in London two years ago. A man called David Irving, a historian, was accused in a book of being a Holocaust denier, you know, he said the Holocaust never happened ... it's a quite common ... and he sued the woman who said it, an American academic, Professor [Lipschlatz] she's called. And there was a huge libel trial, it lasted something like forty days. And Ridley Scott and HBO have come to me and asked me if I'd reconstruct it, which is a hell of a job, because there's not much material for me to write ... it's a question of editing, in a way. So again, I'm on a real thing again. I don't mind, I like it.
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Gary: |
Polanski was also producer ... co-producer ... ?
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Ronald: |
Co-producer, there were two other producers, Robert Benmussa and Alain Sarde, there were three of them. But they never interfered. I never ... except for them to tell me how much they liked the script ... I never heard from them. They were wonderful.
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Gary: |
Right.
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Ronald: |
They did the business side entirely.
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Gary: |
There's the one question I have because I want to compare it to the way things work in New Zealand, which is ... there is a very strict way of developing a screenplay from the funding point of view. So ... in terms of you being paid to develop the script, did you have any obligations to whoever was funding ... was that the production company or was there another outside funder who was investing in the film ... ?
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Ronald: |
If there was, I didn't know. I think there was ... Canal Plus I think were behind the whole operation ... but I was employed by Robert Benmussa's company, I think ... I can't remember ... and they paid me and that was that.
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Gary: |
But there was no input to the ...
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Ronald: |
None. They never ...
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Gary: |
There was no study of your script or anything like that?
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Ronald: |
Not at all. But that was because of Polanski. I mean he's a very famous director ... they're not going to put their ... and he's very tough, he doesn't like interference at all, so he kept them at bay. That's quite unusual. I mean American producers interfere more, I think.
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Gary: |
But yes, the status of the director does have a lot to do with it, I mean ...
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Ronald: |
Oh absolutely, no question. It's a directors' medium. There's no way ... look at this (indicated room ... our little trio in big empty room.) I mean ... how many writers come to Cannes. They don't know what the writer does ... I mean ...
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Gary: |
Exactly.
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Port.Man: |
Do you like the final product? It is exactly what you ... ?
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Ronald: |
You know, he was very loyal to the script ... because he was part of it, you know. And he never changed anything ... I think he put in one line. I think there's one line that wasn't in the script which he put in. And I'm very happy with it ... I was very touched last night watching it again ... I haven't seen it for a few weeks ... and the audience's attention was ... did you see it last night?
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Gary: |
I saw it yesterday morning.
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Port.Man: |
... for the press ...
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Ronald: |
Well I don't know what that showing was like, but last night there was a huge audience, and they were totally silent. And that's a marvellous compliment, I think. No coughing ... nobody got up and walked out ...
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Port.Man: |
You were there during the shooting ... ?
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Ronald: |
No, I find filming very boring. I'd rather check in at an airport.
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Gary: |
Yes ... I heard, I overheard you say that ...
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Ronald: |
It's the most ... you've been to a ... have you been on a film set? It's very boring. Only two people know what's going on ... the director and the lighting cameraman, and the rest ... you just sit about.
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Port.Man: |
You wait for hours ...
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Ronald: |
Oh ... it's terrible. I'd rather go home and write.
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Port.Man: |
You spoke about the production company in the past when you wrote "The Dresser," you went as far as to produce the film ...
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Ronald: |
No ... I'll tell you what happened, it was a very nice thing, I didn't really produce the film ... Peter Yates, the director, had such a good time on the film that he gave me a producer's credit, but I did nothing, honestly. When we were in Hollywood for the premiere ...
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Port.Man: |
... [?] ...
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Ronald: |
Yes, sure, yeah, he drove me up Sunset Boulevard, and he said, "Look up there, look up there," and there was this huge neon sign saying "A Peter Yates - Ronald Harwood Film." I've never had before and I've never had since. He's the sweetest man in the world ... Peter Yates has no ego of any kind, and he just gave it to me as a present, and it was a wonderful gift, it was terrifically exciting, you know ...
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Gary: |
You said that Roman Polanski maybe changed one line in the actual shooting ... I assume that implies that the shooting was very faithful to the screenplay ...
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Ronald: |
Absolutely ...
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Gary: |
... to the full stop ...
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Ronald: |
... religiously faithful.
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Gary: |
In terms of the direction ... ?
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Ronald: |
Of both the description, of the way action took place, and of what people said.
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Gary: |
And as far as the way the action took place, was that largely from him as a director, working through the script and imagining how he was going to shoot it ...
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Ronald: |
Both ... between the two of us, I think. See, we both come from theatre backgrounds, and I think that's a very interesting approach to movies. We kind of have an instinct of how things work dramatically. The difficulty with this film was we didn't want to over-dramatise. We didn't want to make it over-passionate, or over-emotional, so we wanted to keep our distance. That was difficult, I think. Just show what happens and then go on to the next thing. It's very unusual, I think in film terms, don't you? I mean usually there's more ... American films of course pound away at the emotion ...
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Gary: |
It's the difference between emotion and sentiment ...
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Ronald: |
Well exactly. And I think we avoided all sentimentality. I hope so.
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Gary: |
It's quite low key, but it seems much more effective ... it reminded me of the films I used to see on TV as a kid ... they were big stories about big things ...
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Ronald: |
Yeah ...
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Gary: |
Two and a half hours, and it just took its time, and you just got drawn into it.
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Ronald: |
I love that. I do, I love that.
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Port.Man: |
The second World War ended more than fifty years ago, and unfortunately we have in the world lots of wars after that, but literature and cinema constantly goes back to the Second World War, so the question is ... is there a romantic aura about that war ... ?
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Ronald: |
God, that's a good question ...
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Port.Man: |
... or do you think the war didn't end at all ..
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Ronald: |
God, that's a good question. And it's a dangerous thing for people like me to romanticise. I've never written an actual war story. I mean ... I'm Jewish, and I was born in thirty-four, so my childhood was the war, and then the revelations of the Holocaust in forty-five, forty-six. I was then twelve ... so they've scarred me, they've haunted me all my life ... the Holocaust ... not the war itself, though I'm very interested in the war, but I've never written about it. I hope I haven't fallen into the trap of romanticising, but I know exactly what you mean, it is a great danger ... and you see, I think during the war and immediately after the war there was a great need to propagandise the Allied victory and how brave our boys were and all that. And that influenced all the films that came afterwards I think ... I don't think we've escaped from that. The problem with a great war of that kind ... not the war so much, but the event ... the German cruelty ... the savagery of that war is unique in history. I mean the actual industrialisation of slaughter ... industrial ... slaughter ... that's what it was ... it was the industrial ... the final act of the industrial revolution.
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Gary: |
Or could it be also that it was a world war and everyone has a story ...
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Ronald: |
Yeah, I think that's true ...
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Gary: |
Even in New Zealand there are stories ...
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Ronald: |
But you played a great part in ... I mean ... the ANZAC ...
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Gary: |
Everyone has a story in that war ...
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Ronald: |
Portugese was neutral during the war ...
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Port.Man: |
Because of Salazar ...
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Ronald: |
Salazar, of course. And Franco was neutral too.
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Port.Man: |
We have a very particular situation ... I don't know if you are aware of it ... because Portugal and Britain are long-time allies ...
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Ronald: |
The oldest allies that Britain and the Portugese have ...
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Port.Man: |
But for the other side, Portugal had an extreme right Government at the time ... a dictatorship ... so for one common point of view, probably the best thing for Salazar was to go with Hitler ...
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Ronald: |
Yeah, but he didn't ...
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Port.Man: |
He didn't because of the oldest alliance with the British ...
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Ronald: |
I think that was very lucky for the Portugese people because it would've been a terribly damaging thing. And Portugal became very useful in the war because it was a neutral place where a lot of spies ... I've always thought they must ...
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Port.Man: |
Casablanca, in Casablanca ...
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Ronald: |
Casablanca ...
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Port.Man: |
... they came out to ...
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Ronald: |
Exactly. That's right. Do your writers write about the war?
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Port.Man: |
Not much.
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Ronald: |
Not much.
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Port.Man: |
No, not even the cinema ... they made a film about that period with British spies there and ... [?] ... the plane came in from Casablanca ...
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Ronald: |
Yes, yes ... 'cause you know the famous English actor ... he's actually Hungarian ... Leslie Howard ... remember "Gone with the Wind" ...
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Port.Man: |
Yeah, yeah ...
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Ronald: |
He was killed ...
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Port.Man: |
... he was killed ... in the flight ...
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Ronald: |
... in the flight leaving ... they thought Churchill was on the plane ... there was some spy thing, and he was shot down and killed. He was Hungarian actually. Looked so beautifully English, and he behaved like an English gent ... he was Hungarian.
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Port.Man: |
Perhaps it's a story to you ... for you ...
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Ronald: |
Leslie Howard's story ... ?
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Port.Man: |
... for you to write ... ?
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Ronald: |
Maybe. Who knows. At the moment I'm rather tired. Let me get this Irving trial out of the way and then I'll have a holiday and think about it.
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Gary: |
You're one of the ... I think there are eight films in competition that have a sole screenwriting credit ...
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Ronald: |
Oh right ...
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Gary: |
And you're credited with solely writing the screenplay in every piece of publicity, except the ...
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Ronald: |
I know.
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Gary: |
... where it says "Roman Polanski wrote the script with ..."
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Ronald: |
He didn't ... he didn't. But I don't know where that came from. You can't control these things. Maybe he said "I want that in ..." I don't know. There's no question he contributed ... the script and the film would not be what it is without him, so I'm not detracting from him at all ... but ... I can't ...
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Gary: |
He didn't write it.
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Ronald: |
No ... no he didn't write it. I mean all directors contribute to a script ... they're going to shoot it ...
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Gary: |
Of course they do, yeah ...
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Ronald: |
It's their medium ... it's not the writer's medium. Unfortunately.
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Gary: |
I also overhead in the last interview, while I was tapping my fingers there ... something you said ... "I felt a real fraud." I don't know what the question was ...
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Ronald: |
I'll tell you what the question was. I was an actor for seven years before I started to write ... a very bad actor ... and then I began writing. And for a long time I felt fraudulent as a writer ... when people [would say] "What do you do?" I'd say, "I'm a writer," and I ... well I'm not really a writer, I've published a couple of books or something, but I didn't feel at ease with that. And then as you grow up, you forget all that, you just do what you can do.
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Gary: |
Yes ... I heard once that the biggest fear all writers have is that really they're no good and the next thing they do is going to find them out.
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Ronald: |
Well that's true. Are you going to get caught?
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Gary: |
Well ... that's about all the ...
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Ronald: |
Good.
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Gary: |
... things that I want to know.
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Ronald: |
Well thank you very much, I've enjoyed that. Thank you.
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Port.Man: |
Thank you very much.
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Gary: |
It's been very interesting. How much longer are you here?
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Ronald: |
I'm going to go tomorrow afternoon. I was going to go on Monday but I've changed my mind. I'm going to go back tomorrow.
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Gary: |
Have you enjoyed it? Being in Cannes?
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Ronald: |
Not really. (points to tape recorder) Turn that off. Not really.
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Gary: |
We'll just switch this-- (click)
----------
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Gary: |
(recorded a few minutes later, out on the street) Well he was a lovely man, wasn't he. While I remember it, what he said after he asked for the tape to be turned off ... albeit rather in a jocular manner ... was that the writers get treated appallingly in Cannes. He had gone to another festival in Berlin where there was a play based ... a film based on a play he made ... and nobody knew who he was. Even though he'd written the film and it was based on his play ... nobody knew who he was. And he said yes, in general, in cinema writers get treated appallingly, they get ignored, whereas in theatre the writer is God ... and coming from a theatre background that's his take on the difference.
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