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INTERVIEW WITH PAUL LAVERTY Writer of the film "Sweet Sixteen" directed by Ken Loach Cannes, Thursday May 23rd 2002 Gary: I'm from the New Zealand Writers Guild magazine, "Write Up," and so I've been trying to talk to screenwriters, and particularly singling out screenwriters who have the sole screenwriting credit ... Paul: Oh, yeah ... Gary: ... and are technically not collaborators with the director, although it's slightly different in your case because the collaboration's quite tight ... but what I'm particularly interested in is ... sort of ... the technical process that you went through from the idea to the shooting script ... I mean it's a long process ... and what's the great cup of coffee test? Paul: In a way it's all ... I mean it's ... when you actually talk about it, it sounds awfully like ... [?] ... it's been organic really ... what happened with this story was ... I just had a notion of Liam in the back of my head, and people ask the question "well where from" ... and you're inclined to make it up, because you can't really remember, that's if you're honest ... I've got a sense it might've come out of some character I had for "My name is Joe" and there wasn't space ... you're a writer yourself are you? Gary: Yeah. Paul: You write screenplays? Gary: Pardon? Paul: You write screenplays? Gary: Yeah, yeah. Paul: Oh ... you know what it's like, you know what it's like ... so many things come into your head at the beginning ... you know, and almost like ... if you're going to do a film it's so incredibly disciplined ... see, like a novel where you can have thousands of different characters and different levels, and time scales, but ... the thing with film, it's just so disciplined ... you've only got like an hour and a half ... you know, and all these characters are shouting for attention, and you've got to kill them off 'cause there's not space for everyone. You know, and ... like in this particular film, "Sweet Sixteen," Liam, you know, it's from his point of view almost with ... apart from two scenes in the whole film, you know? So I suppose perhaps Liam maybe came out of somebody that was rejected from "My Name is Joe." And so what I did was ... I just had a notion of what he was like, and I did a couple of draft scenes and [gave?] him a voice ... and then I just sent that to Ken. Gary: Right, so the impetus came from you, saying to Ken, "What do you think of this idea? What do you think of these characters?" Paul: Yeah, that's how it usually works ... what's happened most of the time is ... I drop him a line with ... you know, we're talking about things all the time ... but I usually ... I'll have an idea of a character and a situation or a notion, and I'll just say, "well what do you think of that ..." you know? ... and you can see the tendencies, you know ... and ...[?] ... and if you think that's really really worthwhile, you know ... Gary: This is your fourth collaboration with Ken, isn't it ... Paul: Yes, yeah, I've other things that haven't worked out ...stories and ... [?] ... maybe Gary: So this is the fourth collaboration that's actually come to fruition. Paul: Yes, that's right. And ... so ... and then, if we just feel there's some life there, I'll really go back and do an awful lot more research, and then I'll just go and write the first draft. Gary: Do you write ... this is sort of a technical question ... do you begin to write a draft, or do you do a story, a treatment first, or scene breakdown or just straight into dialogue and scenes? Paul: A mixture of everything really. I usually ... in the process of investigation, or research, ideas come to mind and ... there's bits of things there you're interested in ... you'll be trying to use some of that ... I just find it builds quite organically ... and then you begin to imagine scenes in your head ... but I think the real tricky bit really is just getting that premise right, and that narrative discipline ... and just the shape of all of that, really ... you know, because I mean you can go in so many ways, can't you, every single point in time ... and I think, I mean I've found now that if you ... [erased] ... outline the whole way to the end, in a way you kill the fun in it, you know? I mean if you start off here, and you say "right, by the end of this story this person is going to do that ..." it feels like you're imposing your own will on the character ... it maybe sounds really arty farty, that, but in another way I think you've got to be open to the ... to where the character actually takes you ... and in a way I find doing that first draft is ... it's often quite an emotional process 'cause in a way you're actually living with ... you're seeing the film for the first time in a way ... I suppose it's like the audience seeing the film, and if you get a kick from it ... I find that when you're writing it and discovering it and... that's the bit that you feel closest to it in a strange way ... so I find that very private, really ... very private. And then of course when I get the first draft done I send it to Ken, and I'd probably send the first draft to Ken much earlier than I would do to anyone else. Gary: Because of the relationship you have with him ... Paul: Yeah, I kind of trust him and ... you're trying things out, and ... "I don't know if this works, but ..." you know, so I'll send it off to him ... and then we'll just look at it again ... Gary: So at that point where you've got a first draft, you've done quite a bit of research before that ... Paul: Oh, I've done a lot of research, yeah ... Gary: ... with youngsters ... I read your press pack ... Paul: In a strange sort of way I think, like, you know, when you say you're a writer ... the longest part isn't actually the writing, for me anyway ... the longest part is just having some notion of what it's about and trying to engage with the material, not to copy lives but to be informed by people's lives, you know? So ... I find actually the longest part is actually just ... just thinking about it, really ... listening to people ... Gary: And as you arrived at that first draft ... is there much to-ing and fro-ing with Ken during that period? Paul: My first draft? No. Gary: No ... so it was ... Paul: I ... [let go?] ... Gary: ... you ran that lap by yourself ... Paul: Yeah ... I suppose so ...in a way you can't ... I mean, I don't understand literally how someone can write ten pages then wait for comments on it, and write twenty pages, or write the first half and ... I mean I just couldn't work that way, really ... because, in a way, when you say it's the first draft, it's not the first draft, you've been through it dozens and dozens of times, you've been up half a dozen cul-de-sacs and drove yourself bloody mad, and ... you know what I mean? You know, so, in a way ... even the first draft is like, you know, the twentieth draft, isn't it ... Gary: It's not, it's just the first public draft ... Paul: Yeah ... Gary: ... or the first one you show, yeah ... Paul: ... it's the first one you feel like, well that's ... there's some coherence there, and there's some notions there we think is really worth talking about, you know, and ... and then once Ken gets that ... I suppose it depends on the project really ... in this particular story ... I mean it changes all the time, but ... in broad general terms that was pretty close to what we eventually ended up with. Gary: So once you got the first draft ... what happened then? Did you do more drafts after that based on the notes he gave you? Paul: Well it's not notes, but we just sit down ... Gary: It's a formal term, but yeah ... Paul: Aye, yeah, yeah ... yeah, we just ... you know, there was one element in this screenplay we just thought, you know ... was ... that it made it lopsided so that was taken out ... and so you just change the spine of it a little bit, but you know ... all the main characters were there ... they were really intact and very very similar. Gary: So there was nothing you would've called second and third draft, it was mainly ... Paul: Aye ... we don't even call it that, I suppose there's different versions all the way through, but it's actually very very organic in the sense that we just keep on reworking and reworking and reworking ... and then I suppose ... having the privilege of having such a close working relationship with Ken, that ... you know, a lot of the people I've met in the investigation ... I'll maybe bring Ken up later on ... cause he has to familiarise himself with the material, and he meets some of the people I've met, and he has to engage with that material too. You know? ... and then even later when we do the casting ... that helps us refine what we've got ... you know, sometimes somebody we really like might not have ... fit exactly, so we change things to suit them a little bit ...so we meet somebody who's really terrific and we fit them in somewhere ... you know, smaller characters and all that ... so I find it quite flexible, you know? Aye, quite flexible ... and throughout the whole shoot, we're prepared to chop and change things ... and cutting out things, and ... or adding things ... Gary: So the actual ... yeah, it's more like ... Paul: So it's more fluid really ... Gary: ... creating a story rather than a formal process? Paul: Yeah ... but we try and make ... in that run-up to ... before production, we just ... really work very very hard on the script. There's lots of myths about ... oh well ... it's much looser ... I mean ... [?] ... we work very very hard to get the script as tight as we possibly can, you know ... line by line, scene by scene ... and if there's a scene there that we don't think really drives us forward or has some proper function ... we'll be quite brutal and take it out. Gary: Yeah, yeah ... and once you're shooting ... how is the ... how much freedom do the actors have with the script ... are you insisting word for word accuracy all the way through ... Paul: No ... Gary: ... or you just ... they take the spirit of the scene and run with it? Paul: I suppose it's in between, really. Depending on who the person is and what the sene is ... you know ... if it's a complex scene, and ... what's going on... they always get the ... Ken shoots in sequence ... so the characters don't know what the hell's happening ... so they live it ... [?] ... Gary: And they don't get the whole script. Paul: No, they don't get the whole script, so they get the script the night before, or the weekend before ... a couple of days before ... or if there's going to be a surprise in it they don't get the script at all ... just see how they react ... and we'll live off what they do ... but often times it's ... Ken estimates when you've finished all the editing ... you go back to about ninety per cent script again, you know? So they get the dialogue but they bring their own words, so in a way if it looks like they're reading lines you're screwed, and if ... you've got to have a sense that they're living it, and breathing it, and that they're actually living the moment ... and so they'll turn phrases and change phrases but ... you know, when you look at the script and look at the final film, you'll find there's a ... it's about ninety per cent ... They're making their own words often times, too ... you'll get things you don't expect, which is terrific to live off that too. Gary: Was there a specific moment that you were talking about where someone was surprised by the ... Paul: Yeah, well ... for example, the kids ... in all the films I've done there's always been surprises for them, really ... but you know, for example, when they come up and find that the caravan's burnt ... Gary: Yeah, yeah ... Paul: You see their faces when they look at that for the first time ... you know, I mean ... they didn't know what the hell was going to happen ... Gary: They didn't know that ... Paul: They didn't know that the caravan was burnt down. Gary: So they just came out of that ... Paul: Aye ... Gary: ... car ... the taxi ... Paul: Yeah ... that's where Ken, I think, is incredibly skilful, really, you know? ... he often captures amazing things ... He did ... I was a ... I had a tiny little part in "Land and Freedom" and I remember there was one scene when the girl was shot at the end of the film, you know? ... I know you're acting and ... but you know, when she's actually shot, and you've spent time with her and ... I know it's a personality in a story, but ... you're actually gobsmacked, and I think he captures those first moments of surprise in a way that you can't really act, and ... because Martin, the actor playing Liam, had a huge relationship with the wee kid ... Gary: Yeah ... Paul: You know ... and they understood each other and liked each other and spent time together, along with Chantelle ... you know when the wee boy starts crying, you don't expect that, it gets you ... Gary: I was stunned by that ... Paul: Aye, it gets you doesn't it, because ... Gary: And the way he was calling out "Uncle Liam" ... Paul: "Uncle Liam" Gary: "Uncle Liam" ... he called him Uncle Liam, and I thought how did they get that kid to be so ... Paul: Aye ... Gary: ... true, to that moment ... Aye, but see I mean the thing is ... it's a skill of ... you know ... having them having a relationship beforehand, so when they see ... he sees Liam upset, you know, which ... we don't tell him what to do ... 'cause the beauty about Ken he ... he recognizes talent in people, but just, you know ... doesn't break it, doesn't interfere, doesn't make them self-concious about it, doesn't analyze it ... just kind of lives off their natural instinct. Gary: Yeah. Paul: So when he starts kicking it and [bawling at it, the] wee boy ... you know, beause Liam did that and he wasn't expecting it ... and then the wee boy sees somebody who he's with ... you know ... upset ... in a way it's ... you can't do that mechanically ... you can't get a kid to do that ... and so ... that's what I love about it ... it's being loose and ... I'm always surprised when writers insist that they've got the best pictures in their mind and the best words that fit the action of the scene and they're not open to kind of have something fresh, or somebody else bringing their own talent into it ... so I don't really get too uptight about these things. Gary: The other thing I was going to ask, in the notes the producer said this was funded in-house, so that you didn't have a funding body that you were answerable to all the way through. Have you worked like that before, where you've been answerable to some kind of executive, or ... Paul: Well, I mean ... I've got a couple of projects on the go just now with people out ... you know, not "Sweet Sixteen" but ... in a way, I mean it doesn't ... [?] ... if they start telling you what to do, they might as well do it themselves really. I mean, you're trying to kind of like get a good premise, and make characters live and breathe, in a way you've got to be faithful to that material ... and then if you somehow engage with them, and they make sense to you, there's a chance they might touch other people, really ... Gary: Right ... Paul: So I've always written what I've wanted to write. Gary: Well the reason I ask is 'cause that in New Zealand we have quite a rigid system of development with funding ... and basically you have to do a treatment, submit it to the funding body and they start giving you notes about whether it's going to ... Paul: A treament? Gary: ... sell ... Paul: I find that's just the wrong way round really ... in a strange sort of way maybe, unless you're ... maybe I'm just not clever enough for it, but in a way, the treatment is ... to sum up the whole film before you've gone through the discovery of the writing process seems to be the wrong way round ... I'd rather write the treatment after I've written the screenplay ... Gary: Yeah, well that's exactly right ... Paul: All you've got at the beginning is a notion ... and then it's actually the process of writing it and working out the relationships that you actually discover what the film is really about ... at least it is for me. Gary: Yeah, I think so, I think that sort of system does kind of impose something on you that is a little bit unnatural. Paul: I can understand why funding bodies have got ... you know ... they've got [only] so much money and lots of people are asking for it, so they want to have some idea of what you're going to do, so I can really understand why they want something on paper, and it should be well worked out, but I think in a way you have to kind of ... see what the premise is and say, well ... and what the writer has to ... some sense of what they might produce, really ... and then trust them, you know? And it's fragile too, you're not guaranteed to hit it off ... it's quite ... you never know [with] the next one whether you're going to just ... capture the complexity, and get a good narrative and whether it'll work or not. Gary: You had a script editor, Roger Smith, didn't you ... Paul: Ah, yeah ... Gary: ... and how did you work with him? How was that relationship? Paul: Well again, it's the three of us really, again it's conversations, it's over a cup of coffee really ... and after we've done the fourth or the fifth time through with Ken ... you know, we always give Roger it to look over ... he's got a very fresh eye, and he understands structure ... it's a very ... it's quite complex, isn't it, really ... you know, to ... some people can read a script and say what they like and what they don't like about it ... but it's quite difficult to say, "Well if you change this here, that might help you there ..." Gary: He actually looks at it quite analytically, does he? Paul: Yeah, he does, and he's got a great eye for bits that are just false and don't work ... and it's like another fresh eye of somebody we trust, really. Gary: And it's quite good when you're ... when you're in the sort of emotional arc of what's going on, and to have someone else who's a little more analytical say, "No, that's not ... put that somewhere else ..." Paul: And they see it fresh ... you know ... [before they do it] ... can I just ... there's a guy just heading off and I just want to say cheerio ... (Click ... click) Gary: So there's really only one other I was going to ask, and that was about ... you had a researcher, Pam Marshall ... Paul: Oh yeah ... Gary: ... was she ... what kind of ... where did her research come in, because you researched yourself, didn't you ... Paul: Oh yeah yeah yeah ... well ... again it's quite organic, again ... 'cause I'll ... once we get this half-idea, I'll go along stomping the streets and talking and meeting to anyone ... "research" makes it sound very organised, you know ... Gary: It does ... Paul: ... I've had so many interviews today I can't remember what I've ... if I've said this already, shut me up, right? ... with research and that, I really will ... I'll do anything, really ... I'll make appointments to go to children's homes ... you know, I went to junior prisons ... I went to people who'd lived through the care service ... talked to carers who'd worked with children ... you know? And then I'll just go in the streets and just bump into people who I'll meet in the area ... and sometimes ... like in this particular story I met a young woman who's a single mother, and just engaged in conversation, and really like just listened to her and seeing what it was like from her point of view ... she was really bright and perceptive, and that makes you link up with something ... you'd maybe discover something else, and things grow in your mind ... you know? ... so some of it was very formal and some of it was just totally arbitrary ... talking to kids on the street corner who'd ... you know ... signed contracts for one week or two weeks in the electronics factory ... and you see these kids talking about ... "Well we don't know if we've any work next week or not" ... you see their eyes and you see their faces ... and you realise, like ... how can I plan my life, you know? And I talk to guys about how much money they've made from selling drugs ... or, you know, what it was like to prove themselves to the boss, and all that ... and you begin to ... you see their faces, and you hear them, and you actually kind of get down to ... you really try and understand how the world is from their point of view, and the contradictions, the decisions, and that's incredibly rich ... you know? ... so eventually, to cut a long story short ... that's very very early ... so when we come round again to actually finding the people, I sit down with Pam ... and I've got this long, huge list of contacts ... and I say, "Go and see these people ... that guy, he works in the local football club, this guy runs a boxing club, this is a guy who's very interesting and he'll put you in contact with such-and-such ... and other people" ... and then she'll actually go round and make contact with some of the people and maybe start describing some of the characters that are in the script, and get them together so that when Ken comes up to do the casting ... we do the improvisations together ... Ken'll give them a situation and I'll often play opposite them ... Gary: Oh yeah ... Paul: ... and ... just to see what the kids are like ... and that's how we found Martin ... [he was great] ... Gary: Cool ... Paul: ... and we give them situations and that reveals who the people are ... you could see Martin was bright and smart and at one point we had an improvisation where I was really winding him up ... you know ... see how angry he could get ... you could see he had balls, you know what I mean? Gary: These people when you first talk to them, they're quite willing to talk? They open up? Paul: Well ... I mean, it's like everyone ... some people don't want to talk ... but actually I've found that ... in the process of doing these stories ... that most people want to talk about their lives ... most people don't listen to them ... and find them ... you know, a whole different range of views again, but you find incredible eloquence with some folks ... I remember going along to that (List ...) it's called the (Listey? List E?) school ... secure accommodation where these kids have been sent, and they can't leave the school ... and all the teachers are amazed at this kid started talking to me ... he was quiet, hadn't said anything ... but we just started chatting ... and actually I turned it round and said, "Well ..." you know, you don't say ... "what about your life and relationships" ... you may do in an interview with me, but I just said, "Well ... if you were to make a story, who would you like to see? What do you think are important things?" And then ... it was actually in a little drama class ... and this wee guy just started coming out with a whole story ... and the teacher was absolutely gobsmacked, because he'd been for the last six months. And of course it was his story ... so you might not get it directly but you'll ... I just find it's ... well it's endlessly complex, isn't it. I find people are happy to share their lives ... and even the most intimate detail, and ... you know, you feel you're in a very privileged position in a way. Gary: They knew why you were trying to get these stories out ... ? Paul: Oh I always tell people ... aye ... Gary: They knew it was for a script for a film? Paul: Oh yeah ... I always tell them that what they tell me will be a secret in the sense that I'm not going to talk about them to other people ... and reveal their identity ... and some people don't care but I always say that to people ... [?] ... a journalist ... and I also tell them that I'm not out to copy anybody's life ... I'm just more ... want to be informed by what's going on ... you know, so some things in the screenplay will reflect lots of different people's lives ... and I find ... some people obviously maybe don't trust you, but I find most people have been incredibly open ... right through from senior figures who work with children right down to ... I mean, [and also] you have to be incredibly careful too, and take advice ... 'cause it's very upsetting for some kids to talk about their relationship with their parents and their mother ... Gary: But it must be partly your personality, you as a person that they warm to. Paul: Well ... I mean ... just very recently for this next story, I've just had a conversation with someone ... you know ... which would burst every single stereotype you ever had in your whole life ... and in a way I think that's what I really love about my job, really, is I suppose you form half a notion, and then you begin to realise how complex people are ... and it's always to try and capture some of that, and ... it's always ... people just constantly ambush you ... and that's ... to me that is again, like I say ... this is all before you even start writing a word ... I'm sure that conversation I've had with that particular woman will ... will register somewhere in the next screenplay. Gary: The people that you spoke to, will they likely see the film? Paul: Yeah, I think they will do, actually ... 'cause I was always amazed when researching this ... you know, "Sweet Sixteen," ... 'cause I went to all these places and I was amazed how many kids had seen "My Name is Joe" ... 'cause everyone assumes like, oh well ... we're an arthouse and ... they all see the Hollywood films, but ... none of them, not one of them had seen it in the cinema ... but all had seen it in video ... you know, and this was kids of twelve and thirteen, in schools and playgrounds, and you know, really tough schools, and children's homes ... and again, I think it bursts the myth that ... you know ... people say, "Well ... they don't want to see these types of films ..." and in fact young people are happy to see another type of film, where they see and hear their own accents, see situations similar to themselves ... Gary: ... and it validates their own existence, doesn't it (MY GOD DID I REALLY SAY THAT!!!!!) they say "That's us ..." Paul: Aye ... and I saw the same thing with people in Nicaragua ... you know ... we did this story about people in Nicaragua, in "Carlos'" and also seeing the cleaners in LA seeing themselves, and cleaners saying, "Wow," ... nobody ever thought they'd tell a story about a cleaner ... as if that was important, and the choices in their lives were interesting ... you know? ...and I think people have got much bigger tastes than executives would somehow allow us to believe, sometimes ... Gary: I think you're right ... well look, that's great, that's all I think weÕll ... time's up ... so ... Paul: Okay ... good to meet you. Gary: Good to meet you.

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